mornelithe_falconsbane: (Most interesting cat in the world)
[personal profile] mornelithe_falconsbane posting in [community profile] 21_days
This is the official Dead Vanyel Party discussion post!

Whether it's your first read or your millionth, there's always something worth talking about--and rambling at length about at that. Confide in your fellow Lackey fans--who's your fave? What books do you eat up with a spoon? Does Vanyel end up as a gay Companion after the Mage Storms books? Or is he reborn as the very subtle baby herald "Vanel"? If so, does that make Stef his life-bonded companion "Tylenol", or what? And is Ma'ar REALLY dead? (No!)

Life's little questions, and we all want to talk about them.

Anon and unanon are currently allowed on this post. As of August 9, only anon posting will be allowed, in order to foster an anonny sense of anonymousness, in the vein of everyone's favorite meme ;P. The exception to the anon-only rule is the Introduction Thread, where you can introduce yourself and meet fellow players.

If you're looking for "Research Materials", join the comm and visit this post. (Subtle, right?)

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What are you reading?

Date: 2015-07-20 09:23 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Which book is first on your Valdemar list?

Re: What are you reading?

Date: 2015-07-20 09:27 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I'm rereading Talia's trilogy right now, and just finished Arrows of the Queen! I don't think I ever reread it before, so the last time I read it I was around 13. It's weird to read it again realizing how young Talia really is.

Re: What are you reading?

Date: 2015-07-20 09:33 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Exile's Honour!

And boom, there it is:

Whatever; when Alberich lost his faithful old Smoke a few weeks ago he hadn't expected to get anything better than the obstinate, intractable gelding he'd taken from its bandit owner. But fate ruled otherwise; the Voice chose to "honor" him with a superior replacement along with his commission, the letter that accompanied the paper pointing out that Silver was the perfect mount for a Captain of light cavalry. It was also another evidence of favoritism from above, with the implication that he had earned that favoritism outside of performance in the field.

First page, and she doesn't follow through with that AT ALL. How unfair!

...and yet fixable. God I love the first part of this book.

Re: What are you reading?

Date: 2015-07-20 09:41 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
What do you think of her now? I remember identifying with her super hard when I was about 13 or 14, but last time I tried to reread, I almost couldn't.

She was still quite loveable as a character, there was just a lot of me cringing at myself in retrospect. And lolling at how unbelievably tailored to my barely teenaged id those books were. Talking magic horses who chose a lonely reject to be ~special~? Yeah, perfection.
From: (Anonymous)
I mean, if it's going to be a kink meme...
From: (Anonymous)
Is it in bad taste to say Vanyel's got a rape kink? No? How about Talia?

Okay, okay, Talia probably doesn't.

Re: What are you reading?

Date: 2015-07-22 12:18 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I am currently stalled out about halfway through Winds of Change, which is weird because I remember really liking this book.

Y'all have read the Vanyel drag queen AU, right?

Date: 2015-07-23 12:40 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
It's honestly the best LGBT fic I've ever read.
shadow_lover: (pawn)
From: [personal profile] shadow_lover
That looks amazing! I'm avoiding Valdemar fic until after the fest (focusing on canon review because it's been ten years since I read some of these), but definitely bookmarking that for later.
shadow_lover: (price)
From: [personal profile] shadow_lover
I could see Stefen being kinky AF, in a really playful and experimental sort of way. No hardcore painplay or anything, but blindfolds and feather-tickling and licking chocolate off each other and Extremely Improbable locations? Absolutely.

Krebain and Mornelithe definitely have the rape kink from the other side of things...
From: (Anonymous)

Oh, totally. And poor innocent Vanyel is just confused about all of Stefen's ideas. Confused and into them! But confused!
From: (Anonymous)
Elspeth and Darkwind do all manner of things with silk ropes and hand-carved wooden penetrative devices. And really, really complicated positions. The Tayledras have some great ideas.

Kethry is a gentle, generous dom (no bondage, but definite control). Jadrek loves to submit.

Sherrill, Keren and Ylsa have not actually had sex with each other on Companion-back, but that doesn't stop rumors from getting around the Heralds' Collegium. Most of their sex is vanilla. Delicious, enthusiastic vanilla.

Someone really ought to write explicit Lavan/Kalira. I mean, it's right there in the text.

There was that one time when Kris and Dirk were drunk and got it on. In an alternate universe where Kris isn't dead, Talia finds out about it later and organizes a threesome. In fact, in that alternate universe, they settle into a stable triad where two parties are lifebonded and the third is their best friend. Oh, and they all learn to freaking communicate.

Kerowyn and Eldan do finally figure out that having sex in dreams means never having to worry about the laws of physics. Underwater sex? Flying sex? Really athletic Tayledras-meets-Kama-Sutra sex that challenges even Kero and Eldan's perfectly-in-form bodies? Why not?

Savil has much more frequent, much better sex than Vanyel or Tylendel ever manage. (Stefen, pre-Vanyel, is another story.)

Tarma is absolutely ace. Kethry is absolutely heterosexual. Nevertheless the two of them do a lot of nonsexual cuddling and massage. A lot.

(I would be happy for anyone to write about any of these!)

Vanyel's rebirth

Date: 2015-07-23 06:25 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I vote that post-canon, Van and Stef are reborn as Tayledras. They get a lovely treehouse, a lot of hot springs, and some gryphon friends. Of course they have to save the universe in other ways, but at least they can do it and soak in hot springs in between universe-saving.

Hey, Sorrows Forest is cold. If you had to spend hundreds of years as a ghost there, you'd want to go where the hot springs are too.

Re: What are you reading?

Date: 2015-07-23 06:47 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Hm. On rereading, I still found Talia very likeable, and I think I'm better able to appreciate how all of the special positions and abilities she acquires don't suddenly erase her self-esteem issues.

The main thing I had trouble getting around was Elspeth as the Brat, and how Talia was the only one who could help. Like, NOBODY else in the capitol was able to handle a difficult child? Really? I suppose the kid's status as the Queen's daughter complicated things.

And due to changing cultural norms since the book was published, the spanking/corporal punishment doesn't seem as reasonable as I'm sure it used to.
thene: PROTIP do not fuck with Minette (minette)
From: [personal profile] thene
Canon facts: Van declares that he has a need to be in absolutely equal relationships, but what he gets into are relationships with very, very distinct power imbalances. It's also canon that he bottomed with Lendel.

So, not surprising that everyone in kink fanfic writes Van as submissive XD Imo, he likes being used. Partly due to his lingering issues with his sexuality, he prefers when someone else takes the lead. He also really, really likes to please. But at the same time, it's always a matter of suspension of disbelief for him because of that thing where he actually could kill a bed-partner in his sleep without even consciously thinking about it? When it pleases someone to tie him up and hurt him, he'll do it - physical vulnerability doesn't bother him at all. Emotional vulnerability, though...

I can't see rape kink per se, but I can see him exploring it with Stef in a functional-dysfunctional way. (Someone write this for me immediately next month.)

Stef's relationship with pain is as major as Van's relationship with power. I don't really think he's a sadist but it's fun to write about. I can totally see him just being fascinated with pain, with controlling someone else's experience of pain.

Lendel acts dominant and is totally not aware of it and Van just does whatever Lendel wants, and it's kind of heartbreaking.

Everyone is way into outdoor sex, obv. Lendel first got Van into it as a dare, but Van is enough of an adrenaline junkie that it stuck with him.
shadow_lover: (pawn)
From: [personal profile] shadow_lover
I love your thoughts :D And it's really interesting to explore the intersection of overall relationship equality with D/s dynamics -- they might be equal but have different needs. Vanyel feels so much strain and pressure from his duties as the #1 Herald-Mage that I think giving up control would be really therapeutic for him. I think he'd be really shy about experimenting with kink at first, and gradually lose control and open up and end up loving it.

Exactly right about 'Lendel :( If he'd had a chance to grow up, I think he'd have gotten switchier -- and Stef seems like a switch to me. I think Stef would like topping or domming as a way of proving himself and proving his expertise (the massage scene in Magic's Price seemed very service-toppy to me), but he'd also like subbing just for how it feels.

I could see Stef acting bratty and coaxing/manipulating Vanyel into giving him a spanking. Can't really see them getting into age-play, though, since Stef's age was such an actual sticking point for Van.

I also want to know how all of their Gifts could work into kink... I bet Stef could weave some interesting stories with a naughty song or two, and Vanyel just has so many different Gifts to work with. Or Tylendel too -- I bet Tylendel played around with some kinky magic, which was incredibly exciting/unnerving for Vanyel before he had any magical experience of his own.
thene: Happy Ponyo looking up from the seabed (Default)
From: [personal profile] thene
I bet Stef could weave some interesting stories with a naughty song or two

The good news is, there's a really great little 400-word fic about this. The bad news is, I hope you can read French, or at least enjoy it via google translate?

I totally agree about Stef switching...I mean, it's Stef, there's not a lot he doesn't want to try. But I think he prefers to be in control. You should def try the tempting Van into dominating him idea - I've never seen any D/s fic where Van is the top. I think that may be because Van is all dodgy about the age gap; the whole thing hinges on Stef being the sexually assertive one.

When [personal profile] kat_nic and I first dared each other into writing kink for this pairing, I started from the idea that Stef would coax Van into being kinky with him, but she went with Van coaxing Stef into being kinky with him which is kinda hella fun and I've come to think she may have been right; it just seems to make sense that Van would have figured that out about himself by that point and he'd know what he wanted from Stef, even if he couldn't say it.

ETA: Oh god, I can see Lendel doing that, in a dumb kids playing with fire way. There's something in Winds of Change about sex magics, but sadly no details. Maybe Lendel read a few things and oh god.
Edited Date: 2015-07-24 04:02 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)

Rape kink post-actual rape, obviously. ^.^ He'd be so ashamed. :D

And...I agree with everything you just said. I don't think Vanyel would have a clue what to do with an equal partner, and had Stef not pursued him like a greyhound chasing a rabbit, Vanyel would have nobly refrained forever because he could never take advantage. Now being taken advantage of, on the other hand, that he finds very hard to resist.

Didn't a ton of heralds think Vanyel had taken advantage of Tylendel in the first book? Was quite a formative time for Vanyel, hearing exactly what people thought of him.

(yeeees I want to write this too)

thene: "I think it may be just as well to have a good understanding even with shades." (s.)
From: [personal profile] thene
Didn't a ton of heralds think Vanyel had taken advantage of Tylendel in the first book? Was quite a formative time for Vanyel, hearing exactly what people thought of him.

:( wow, yeah. Jaysen did think that, and it would make sense if a bunch of other people also saw him as a sexual predator. His family did. And around his family, he's really terrified of doing anything to reinforce that view. So, yeah.

I can see where you're coming from on post-actual rape (and Van being ashamed and awkward is our crack) but I've never figured out how to instigate it. I could imagine that a play scenario with Stef in which Van was in complete control of the scene could be helpful and healing for him. But it would be damn hard for either of them to go there.

From: (Anonymous)
To be fair, the timeline kind of absolutely doesn't allow it, so it'd have to be some kind of AU where Leareth has a surprise heart attack at the shock of how very pretty Vanyel is in person, and also, giant avalanche takes out his army.

To be super fair, I'm totally willing to write that for my perverse desire for Vanyel the super awkward to try and communicate without words that he wants Stef to hold him down and fuck him really hard while Vanyel pretends he doesn't want Stef to. How do you subtle hint THAT, Vanyel? :D (Awkwardly!)

Also Yfandes angst about not having a tail.

...I like a lot of things. Especially crack, tbh.

(Vanyel is a surprisingly consistent character with surprisingly consistent issues)
thene: "'The spirit is a garden,' said he." Photograph from (snowdrops of gratuitous self-reference)
From: [personal profile] thene
so it'd have to be some kind of AU where Leareth has a surprise heart attack at the shock of how very pretty Vanyel is in person, and also, giant avalanche takes out his army

^i will happily assume this AU, except when I want angsty post-canon Stef, because I love angsty post-canon Stef svfm.

Van/Lendel is the they didn't need words ship.
Van/Stef is the words and love ship. <--esp given that this appears right after the rape, I think he DID eventually have to figure out how to communicate with Stef using actual words, but oh so awkwards.

Or, suppose it was Stef's idea and then he sat in a corner to be horrified at himself forever for even thinking it might help, well maybe a lot, well maybe given everything he knows about both people and Vanyel he's actually pretty sure it would work, but oh god he's horrified at himself for believing that.
shadow_lover: (promise)
From: [personal profile] shadow_lover
I actually can read French! I'm more used to 17th century plays than fanfic, of course, but it should be a good vocab exercise :D

Yeah there's not a lot of space within canon to push Vanyel's boundaries with the age gap issue. Vanyel was still very much in "protect baby Stefen" mode almost to the end.

I could see Vanyel's kinky/subby nature being part of why other relationships in between Tylendel and Stefen didn't work out. Not only did his job, status, and shitty mental health get in the way, but he would probably find it very difficult to open up about needing to be tied up or ordered around. So by the time he meets Stef, he already knows that all vanilla, all the time doesn't work for him. (Cue angsty conversations with Yfandes about how it's hard enough being shaych, how will he find someone who also wants to blindfold and gag him, yet won't think less of him?) I'm going to prompt for fic of Lendel trying sex magic on Van and everything going TERRIBLY WRONG and then Savil bursts in to see what the explosion was and finds them naked and very embarrassed in a wrecked bedroom.
From: (Anonymous)
You have only good ideas, and should be proud of that.

I especially like it being Stef's idea. That could be so very, very screwed up.

But now you have me thinking of how Tylendel could have pushed Vanyel into pretty much anything, and isn't that a lovely thought? God, so many prompt ideas.

So what are you going to prompt?

Date: 2015-07-24 09:03 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
And is it to get it written or to write it yourself? :P

Re: So what are you going to prompt?

Date: 2015-07-24 10:13 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
A plethora of Vanyel/Tantras prompts, which will be filled by someone who may or may not be me. (Will probably be me). Many Tantras is straight, but Vanyel is pretty "trapped in a waystation" prompts, oh yes.

And prompting my OTP, Vanyel/Guilt, and Vamyel/Shadow Lover.

And of course my other OTP, Alberich/literally-anyone-but-Myste. Definitely Alberich/non-con gangbang prior to burning (not that I'm currently writing that or anything), capped with some delicious trauma.
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