mornelithe_falconsbane: (Most interesting cat in the world)
[personal profile] mornelithe_falconsbane posting in [community profile] 21_days
This is the official Dead Vanyel Party discussion post!

Whether it's your first read or your millionth, there's always something worth talking about--and rambling at length about at that. Confide in your fellow Lackey fans--who's your fave? What books do you eat up with a spoon? Does Vanyel end up as a gay Companion after the Mage Storms books? Or is he reborn as the very subtle baby herald "Vanel"? If so, does that make Stef his life-bonded companion "Tylenol", or what? And is Ma'ar REALLY dead? (No!)

Life's little questions, and we all want to talk about them.

Anon and unanon are currently allowed on this post. As of August 9, only anon posting will be allowed, in order to foster an anonny sense of anonymousness, in the vein of everyone's favorite meme ;P. The exception to the anon-only rule is the Introduction Thread, where you can introduce yourself and meet fellow players.

If you're looking for "Research Materials", join the comm and visit this post. (Subtle, right?)

From: (Anonymous)
I mean, if it's going to be a kink meme...
From: (Anonymous)
Is it in bad taste to say Vanyel's got a rape kink? No? How about Talia?

Okay, okay, Talia probably doesn't.
shadow_lover: (price)
From: [personal profile] shadow_lover
I could see Stefen being kinky AF, in a really playful and experimental sort of way. No hardcore painplay or anything, but blindfolds and feather-tickling and licking chocolate off each other and Extremely Improbable locations? Absolutely.

Krebain and Mornelithe definitely have the rape kink from the other side of things...
From: (Anonymous)

Oh, totally. And poor innocent Vanyel is just confused about all of Stefen's ideas. Confused and into them! But confused!
thene: PROTIP do not fuck with Minette (minette)
From: [personal profile] thene
Canon facts: Van declares that he has a need to be in absolutely equal relationships, but what he gets into are relationships with very, very distinct power imbalances. It's also canon that he bottomed with Lendel.

So, not surprising that everyone in kink fanfic writes Van as submissive XD Imo, he likes being used. Partly due to his lingering issues with his sexuality, he prefers when someone else takes the lead. He also really, really likes to please. But at the same time, it's always a matter of suspension of disbelief for him because of that thing where he actually could kill a bed-partner in his sleep without even consciously thinking about it? When it pleases someone to tie him up and hurt him, he'll do it - physical vulnerability doesn't bother him at all. Emotional vulnerability, though...

I can't see rape kink per se, but I can see him exploring it with Stef in a functional-dysfunctional way. (Someone write this for me immediately next month.)

Stef's relationship with pain is as major as Van's relationship with power. I don't really think he's a sadist but it's fun to write about. I can totally see him just being fascinated with pain, with controlling someone else's experience of pain.

Lendel acts dominant and is totally not aware of it and Van just does whatever Lendel wants, and it's kind of heartbreaking.

Everyone is way into outdoor sex, obv. Lendel first got Van into it as a dare, but Van is enough of an adrenaline junkie that it stuck with him.
shadow_lover: (pawn)
From: [personal profile] shadow_lover
I love your thoughts :D And it's really interesting to explore the intersection of overall relationship equality with D/s dynamics -- they might be equal but have different needs. Vanyel feels so much strain and pressure from his duties as the #1 Herald-Mage that I think giving up control would be really therapeutic for him. I think he'd be really shy about experimenting with kink at first, and gradually lose control and open up and end up loving it.

Exactly right about 'Lendel :( If he'd had a chance to grow up, I think he'd have gotten switchier -- and Stef seems like a switch to me. I think Stef would like topping or domming as a way of proving himself and proving his expertise (the massage scene in Magic's Price seemed very service-toppy to me), but he'd also like subbing just for how it feels.

I could see Stef acting bratty and coaxing/manipulating Vanyel into giving him a spanking. Can't really see them getting into age-play, though, since Stef's age was such an actual sticking point for Van.

I also want to know how all of their Gifts could work into kink... I bet Stef could weave some interesting stories with a naughty song or two, and Vanyel just has so many different Gifts to work with. Or Tylendel too -- I bet Tylendel played around with some kinky magic, which was incredibly exciting/unnerving for Vanyel before he had any magical experience of his own.
thene: Happy Ponyo looking up from the seabed (Default)
From: [personal profile] thene
I bet Stef could weave some interesting stories with a naughty song or two

The good news is, there's a really great little 400-word fic about this. The bad news is, I hope you can read French, or at least enjoy it via google translate?

I totally agree about Stef switching...I mean, it's Stef, there's not a lot he doesn't want to try. But I think he prefers to be in control. You should def try the tempting Van into dominating him idea - I've never seen any D/s fic where Van is the top. I think that may be because Van is all dodgy about the age gap; the whole thing hinges on Stef being the sexually assertive one.

When [personal profile] kat_nic and I first dared each other into writing kink for this pairing, I started from the idea that Stef would coax Van into being kinky with him, but she went with Van coaxing Stef into being kinky with him which is kinda hella fun and I've come to think she may have been right; it just seems to make sense that Van would have figured that out about himself by that point and he'd know what he wanted from Stef, even if he couldn't say it.

ETA: Oh god, I can see Lendel doing that, in a dumb kids playing with fire way. There's something in Winds of Change about sex magics, but sadly no details. Maybe Lendel read a few things and oh god.
Edited Date: 2015-07-24 04:02 am (UTC)
shadow_lover: (promise)
From: [personal profile] shadow_lover
I actually can read French! I'm more used to 17th century plays than fanfic, of course, but it should be a good vocab exercise :D

Yeah there's not a lot of space within canon to push Vanyel's boundaries with the age gap issue. Vanyel was still very much in "protect baby Stefen" mode almost to the end.

I could see Vanyel's kinky/subby nature being part of why other relationships in between Tylendel and Stefen didn't work out. Not only did his job, status, and shitty mental health get in the way, but he would probably find it very difficult to open up about needing to be tied up or ordered around. So by the time he meets Stef, he already knows that all vanilla, all the time doesn't work for him. (Cue angsty conversations with Yfandes about how it's hard enough being shaych, how will he find someone who also wants to blindfold and gag him, yet won't think less of him?) I'm going to prompt for fic of Lendel trying sex magic on Van and everything going TERRIBLY WRONG and then Savil bursts in to see what the explosion was and finds them naked and very embarrassed in a wrecked bedroom.
thene: PROTIP do not fuck with Minette (minette)
From: [personal profile] thene
I want that sex magic fic right now god damn you :(

(Cue angsty conversations with Yfandes about how it's hard enough being shaych, how will he find someone who also wants to blindfold and gag him, yet won't think less of him?)

Kat's kinkverse goes with that, here. Though I can't imagine it would be that hard for Van to find someone who wanted to see him tied up...

I actually think Van might have got over Stef's age in terms of sex, because there is a lot of canon evidence of relationships with huge age gaps being fairly common - there's Starwind/Moondance, Jervis/Melenna, and it's implicit that Van's parents have a wide age gap too. (Van is the second child out of ten, so unless Withen is MUCH younger than Savil, he's likely much older than Treesa). So I think the difference in power level and life experiences would have troubled him for longer than Stef's age per se. But he's a very protective person, and he'd always rather burden himself than put someone else at risk of harm - so of course he's overprotective of Stef. ;_;
From: (Anonymous)

Rape kink post-actual rape, obviously. ^.^ He'd be so ashamed. :D

And...I agree with everything you just said. I don't think Vanyel would have a clue what to do with an equal partner, and had Stef not pursued him like a greyhound chasing a rabbit, Vanyel would have nobly refrained forever because he could never take advantage. Now being taken advantage of, on the other hand, that he finds very hard to resist.

Didn't a ton of heralds think Vanyel had taken advantage of Tylendel in the first book? Was quite a formative time for Vanyel, hearing exactly what people thought of him.

(yeeees I want to write this too)

thene: "I think it may be just as well to have a good understanding even with shades." (s.)
From: [personal profile] thene
Didn't a ton of heralds think Vanyel had taken advantage of Tylendel in the first book? Was quite a formative time for Vanyel, hearing exactly what people thought of him.

:( wow, yeah. Jaysen did think that, and it would make sense if a bunch of other people also saw him as a sexual predator. His family did. And around his family, he's really terrified of doing anything to reinforce that view. So, yeah.

I can see where you're coming from on post-actual rape (and Van being ashamed and awkward is our crack) but I've never figured out how to instigate it. I could imagine that a play scenario with Stef in which Van was in complete control of the scene could be helpful and healing for him. But it would be damn hard for either of them to go there.

From: (Anonymous)
To be fair, the timeline kind of absolutely doesn't allow it, so it'd have to be some kind of AU where Leareth has a surprise heart attack at the shock of how very pretty Vanyel is in person, and also, giant avalanche takes out his army.

To be super fair, I'm totally willing to write that for my perverse desire for Vanyel the super awkward to try and communicate without words that he wants Stef to hold him down and fuck him really hard while Vanyel pretends he doesn't want Stef to. How do you subtle hint THAT, Vanyel? :D (Awkwardly!)

Also Yfandes angst about not having a tail.

...I like a lot of things. Especially crack, tbh.

(Vanyel is a surprisingly consistent character with surprisingly consistent issues)
thene: "'The spirit is a garden,' said he." Photograph from (snowdrops of gratuitous self-reference)
From: [personal profile] thene
so it'd have to be some kind of AU where Leareth has a surprise heart attack at the shock of how very pretty Vanyel is in person, and also, giant avalanche takes out his army

^i will happily assume this AU, except when I want angsty post-canon Stef, because I love angsty post-canon Stef svfm.

Van/Lendel is the they didn't need words ship.
Van/Stef is the words and love ship. <--esp given that this appears right after the rape, I think he DID eventually have to figure out how to communicate with Stef using actual words, but oh so awkwards.

Or, suppose it was Stef's idea and then he sat in a corner to be horrified at himself forever for even thinking it might help, well maybe a lot, well maybe given everything he knows about both people and Vanyel he's actually pretty sure it would work, but oh god he's horrified at himself for believing that.
From: (Anonymous)
You have only good ideas, and should be proud of that.

I especially like it being Stef's idea. That could be so very, very screwed up.

But now you have me thinking of how Tylendel could have pushed Vanyel into pretty much anything, and isn't that a lovely thought? God, so many prompt ideas.
thene: Happy Ponyo looking up from the seabed (Default)
From: [personal profile] thene
Tylendel could have pushed Vanyel into pretty much anything

yeah because I am awful I did once write Lendel/Van dubcon. :( I didn't do the situation justice at all, tbph. You've got Van's extreme innocence/naivete and also his touch-starvation, the way that Lendel and the sex they have together validates who he is for the first time in his life, plus Lendel's domineeringness and could be the most beautiful, loving situation and still get way way way out of Van's comfort zone.
From: (Anonymous)
Elspeth and Darkwind do all manner of things with silk ropes and hand-carved wooden penetrative devices. And really, really complicated positions. The Tayledras have some great ideas.

Kethry is a gentle, generous dom (no bondage, but definite control). Jadrek loves to submit.

Sherrill, Keren and Ylsa have not actually had sex with each other on Companion-back, but that doesn't stop rumors from getting around the Heralds' Collegium. Most of their sex is vanilla. Delicious, enthusiastic vanilla.

Someone really ought to write explicit Lavan/Kalira. I mean, it's right there in the text.

There was that one time when Kris and Dirk were drunk and got it on. In an alternate universe where Kris isn't dead, Talia finds out about it later and organizes a threesome. In fact, in that alternate universe, they settle into a stable triad where two parties are lifebonded and the third is their best friend. Oh, and they all learn to freaking communicate.

Kerowyn and Eldan do finally figure out that having sex in dreams means never having to worry about the laws of physics. Underwater sex? Flying sex? Really athletic Tayledras-meets-Kama-Sutra sex that challenges even Kero and Eldan's perfectly-in-form bodies? Why not?

Savil has much more frequent, much better sex than Vanyel or Tylendel ever manage. (Stefen, pre-Vanyel, is another story.)

Tarma is absolutely ace. Kethry is absolutely heterosexual. Nevertheless the two of them do a lot of nonsexual cuddling and massage. A lot.

(I would be happy for anyone to write about any of these!)
shadow_lover: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadow_lover
I really like the idea of complicated Tayledras bondage! Pair it with exhibitionism and you've got intense hanging-from-trees action going on all over the place...

If nobody prompts and fills Ylsa!lives AU Sherrill/Keren/Ylsa smut, I'm going to be very disappointed in this fest :D

TBH there are a lot of somebody!lives AU threesomes that need to happen in Valdemar.
thene: Happy Ponyo looking up from the seabed (Default)
From: [personal profile] thene
I need more awful, awkward Vanyel/Shavri/Randale threesomes in my life...
From: (Anonymous)
Oh goshh I kind of want at least one of those too.

I feel weird about Vanyel with women, because even though it's canon that he's slept with women, writing gay characters with opposite sex partners is such a fraught subject in fandom and my kneejerk reaction is NOPE. But I think I'd be down for a scenario where Vanyel and Shavri have sex to make Jisa like in the books, but Randale's also involved to help Van get it up ;)
thene: Fang, Vanille and the space between them. (awakened)
From: [personal profile] thene
lol I wrote that fic already, for the excellent [ profile] gildaurel's birthday two years back. It's here, if you want to see.

writing gay characters with opposite sex partners is such a fraught subject in fandom <--this is just fandom trying to take the easy way out. I know, fandom sometimes finds things like nuance and complexity hard, but IRL people often do things that are incongruent with their sexual identities, for one reason or another. Vanyel had one of those reasons, multiple times. It doesn't bother him, and once he worked through his Shavri issues he was comfortable in his sexual identity regarding it. I don't want to ignore that bit of canon just because some people can't deal with sexuality as something other than cut-and-dried.

ETA i'm just realising this is one of my favourite things about canon: it comes out so strongly against the religious right view that sexuality is just sexual behaviour and that if gay people 'choose' to have sex with women, or be celibate, they'll stop being gay. Van refutes that so hard and I love him for it.
Edited Date: 2015-07-29 12:53 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I definitely agree with you in favor of nuance, and have had some personal experiences that, while incongruent with my sexual identity, were still very valuable and not something I want to deny ever happened! Vanyel's confusion in Promise was something that I didn't really understand the first time I read the books, but it really resonated years down the road.

I do think that, of all subjects for fandom to tread carefully around, this at least is a good one. Not saying it shouldn't be done ever, but it should be done carefully :)
thene: and the space is filled with stars (centuries)
From: [personal profile] thene
(I just remembered that Gilda has written Van/Shavri too, over here, in which they both spend the scene thinking about other people).

yeah - all meaningful topics in fics benefit from being done with skill, informed by personal experience, and in context with canon. Van/Shavri is canon, so I don't see how there's any treading careful to be done if people want to write about it in that canon context? (Or Van/Snowlight, etc).
Edited Date: 2015-07-29 11:05 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)

I will certainly prompt Ylsa!lives Sherrill/Keren/Ylsa. I mean, three hot lifebonded lesbians are even better than two hot lifebonded lesbians! (Although I'm pretty sure Sherrill's actually bisexual.)


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